6.5 Creedmoor Vs 308 Winchester

In Blog by Rich145 Comments

Occasionally we go over a topic here that we get repeated and continued interest in, like the 6.5 Creedmoor Vs 308 Winchester debate. We discussed this a bit in an article on the 6.5 Creedmoor as a good caliber for beginners. Now, due to continued interest in the 6.5 Creedmoor Vs 308 Winchester debate, we’re going to delve a little deeper into the ballistics side of this argument. I also plan to illustrate factory ammo price differences and availability. We’re probably even going to do a cost projection over the usable service life of the barrels and hopefully end the 6.5 Creedmoor Vs 308 Winchester debate, once and for all.

6.5 Creedmoor Vs 308 Winchester: DROP

I’m going to start with the ballistics side of the 6.5 Creedmoor Vs 308 Winchester debate. I can sum it up fairly easily, the 6.5 Creedmoor trounces the 308 Winchester. Period. End of discussion, it’s just a faster caliber with better ballistics. I ran some graphs using my Applied Ballistics phone app to illustrate this visually. Even if you take a light bullet, like the Sierra 155gr Palma and push it up over 2900fps, it still can’t compete.

I realize Palma shooters run these even faster, but this site is directed more at the tactical applications of precision shooting. Yes, in theory you could run a 30″ barrel and really rocket a light bullet and get close performance wise, but that’s a specialized application for a specific group of shooters. The vast majority of those interested in the 6.5 Creedmoor Vs 308 Winchester debate are recreational shooters, hunters, aspiring tactical marksman, law enforcement, etc.


This graph shows the drop path for the three bullets and muzzle velocities I picked for the graph in 308 Winchester

As you can see from the graph, the 175gr Sierra approaches 400 inches of drop at 1000 yards, it’s lobbed more than 32ft in the air in order to connect after fighting gravity out to the target. The 178gr Hornady HPBT does better. The 155gr Sierra HPBT, because of it’s muzzle velocity, does the best at a little over 300 inches of drop. That’s still not that impressive, ballistically speaking when we’re having the whole 6.5 Creedmoor Vs 308 Winchester debate.


Here’s the path for my handloads using 123gr Lapua Scenars and a fairly common muzzle velocity for Hornady Factory 140gr AMAX

The differences in ballistics should already be jumping out at you. Both of the 6.5 Creedmoor loads make the journey to 1000 yards at or under 300 inches of drop. Only the 155gr Sierra HPBT in 308 Winchester could come close to this performance. Yet it still lost by more than a foot. In reality, though, your drop isn’t the big concern when shooting. Most ranges are square and the distances are known. Even in dynamic scenarios and field conditions, laser rangefinders these days make accurate ranging pretty easy. The real test of ballistics is the wind. Gravity is constant and the adjustments needed to overcome it don’t change every few seconds. The wind is another story.

6.5 Creedmoor Vs 308 Winchester: WIND

If you were holding onto any hope the money you bet on the 308 being victorious in the 6.5 Creedmoor Vs 308 Winchester matchup, prepare to have your hopes dashed. Please understand, the 308 is a fine cartridge, I have one and it’s great…but there’s really no contest here. If you have enough money to buy one rifle, make it a Creedmoor. The differences in wind drift are just laughable, and I’m going to show you right now.


This is the drift chart for the same loads in 308 Winchester, the best of the group is my handload at just under 90 inches of drift at 1000 yards

There you have the performance of the 308 Winchester at 1000 yards. This is for a 10mph full value wind. We’ve discussed using that as a baseline several times in our series on How To Read The Wind – The Ultimate Guide.  90″ of drift was the best performance, from my handloads. The more commonly found 175gr Sierra HPBT found in Federal Gold Medal Match ammunition needed more than 100″ of room to overcome the effects of a 10mph wind at 1000 yards. This means you’re aiming more than 8ft into the wind when shooting at a target placed 1000 yards away. It doesn’t sound that bad, right?

Drift chart for 6.5 Creedmoor with 140 AMAX and 123 Scenar

Drift chart for 6.5 Creedmoor with 140 AMAX and 123 Scenar

As you can see the 140gr AMAX commonly found in Hornady and Winchester match ammunition makes the same journey to 1000 yards but needs only 66″ of correction. My handloads with the lighter 123gr Scenar make the journey with about 76″ of correction. So at a minimum, you’re looking at around TWO FEET less drift at 1000 yards using the 6.5 Creedmoor. That may not sound like much in the grand scheme of things. Is 6ft off target that much less than 8ft off target. Well, its 25% better wind performance for starters.

The farther you have to hold off the target and into space, the more room for error you have to acknowledge. Remember, wind is changing constantly! If you’re engaging a 1 MOA plate that’s 10″ across at 1000 yards, do you want to do it with the caliber that needs 25% more wind correction? Or 25% less wind correction?

6.5 Creedmoor Vs 308 Winchester: AMMO

I want to touch on ammunition prices real quick. I’m going to list a couple places you can buy match grade ammunition online the day I post this article. I’m going to write whether they’re in stock or not, and the prices. You be the judge as to which caliber has ammunition more readily available and more competitively priced.


  • Midway USA
    • Federal Gold Medal Match 175gr HPBT
      • $25.99/20 – $1.30/rd – In Stock
      • $249.99/200 – $1.25/rd – Out of Stock
  • Mile High Shooting Accessories
    • Federal Gold Medal Match 175gr HPBT
      • $29.99/20 – $1.50/rd – In Stock


  • Midway USA
    • Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor 140gr AMAX
      • $26.49/20 – $1.32/rnd – Out of Stock
  • Mile High Shooting Accessories
    • Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor 140gr AMAX
      • $26.99/20 – $1.34/rnd – In Stock
      • $260.00/200 – $1.30/rd – In Stock


  • Midway USA
    • Winchester 6.5 Creedmoor 140gr AMAX
      • $26.99/20 – $1.35/rd – In Stock
      • $249.99/200 – $1.25/rd – In Stock
  • Mile High Shooting Accessories
    • Winchester 6.5 Creedmoor 140gr AMAX
      • $26.49/20 – $1.32/rd – In Stock

So there you have it, you can get any of this ammo these days. The 6.5 Creedmoor ammo is attainable for at or less than the cost of match grade 308 Winchester ammunition. Even if the prices were identical, do you want to pay the same amount of money for ammunition that performs 25% less effectively? There’s another thing here that people love to throw around as a basis for comparison. We’re going to deal with that briefly, next, before wrapping up the article, and hopefully the entire 6.5 Creedmoor Vs 308 Winchester debate.

6.5 Creedmoor Vs 308 Winchester: BARRELS

Ahh yes, barrel life. 308 Winchester will last 5000-10,000 rounds and the lowly 6.5 Creedmoor can only expect 2000-3000. I’m going to tell you right now, that’s a misleading concept. For starters I can pretty much guarantee you that those 308 barrels with 5000-10,000 rounds on them probably aren’t shooting 1 MOA or better anymore. When people say 2000-3000 rounds of 6.5 Creedmoor that’s what we’re talking about. The expected life at or under the 1 MOA mark. If you’re willing to shoot the rifling smooth in the barrel, you can go farther. If you’re only shooting minute of deer that may be entirely practical. So let us not confuse one set of accuracy expectations with another.

It Will Last Longer Than You Think

Second, shooting 2000 rounds takes a lot longer than you think. 1000 rounds per year is about 20 rounds EVERY week, or two outings a month shooting 40 rounds or better. Even then, it would take you two years of sustained shooting at that pace to even approach the point where a 6.5 Creedmoor might start to slip above the 1 MOA accuracy standard. Keep things in perspective. We’re talking about firing more than $2600 USD worth of ammunition before the barrel is potentially nearing the end of it’s service life. You can have a new barrel cut and chambered for around 600 bucks. The cost of the barrel pales in comparison to what you’re going to spend on the ammunition required to burn it out. So be realistic about how much you shoot, and how important barrel life really is to you.

Wrapping Up

There were some similarities between this article and the prior one but I wanted to rehash the topic and really drive home the differences in ballistic performance. I wanted to give you some up to date, non Sandy Hook pricing schedule, ammunition costs. Lastly, I wanted to point out how inconsequential barrel life really is in the grand scheme of costs. My hope is that new shooters looking at a Savage in Cabelas or a Ruger Precision Rifle will make a more educated caliber choice. Remember, the 6.5 Creedmoor Vs 308 Winchester debate isn’t really a debate. The Creedmoor is the superior caliber, that’s just the way it is.

I have nothing against 308s, but if a guy looking to get into Precision Rifle shooting asked what caliber he should consider…there’s really only one answer. The 6.5 Creedmoor will perform, as a rule of thumb, roughly 25% better in both drop and wind deflection than the 308 Winchester. Don’t set yourself up for failure, go with the caliber most likely to make your trips to the range a success! If you have any questions or comments to add, please drop them in the comments field below!

Owner and Proprietor of AccuracyTech, LLC. Rich is a Firearms Enthusiast, Precision Rifle Competitor, and Writer. He is committed to bringing readers quality reviews and articles related to the Precision Shooting Sports. If you have any questions for him, please use the contact form on the site.


  1. Great article. Now I think we have beat the 6.5CM vs. 308 debate to death.

    Can you please run the same analysts on 6.5CM vs. 7mm SAUM?

    Good stuff!


    1. Author

      I can work on it, what projectiles are you interested in having compared on the 7mm SAUM side? 162 Amax? High BC Berger Hybrid?

      1. I’m currently shooting a Berger 180gr Hybrid. I know Berger just came out with a 195 but I don’t think it can be pushed fast enough to realize the higher BC until you get past a mile.

        One issue I have with your analysis here is that I find that certain bullet/power combinations give good SD and grouping but it’s not always at the max velocities that your posting. I think including some additional information about these rifles and cartridges would help.

        For example my 7mm Rem Mag likes a Berger 180gr with IMR 7977 at a medium powder load (64.25gr @ 2750fps, SD:5, ES:13, MOA:.4). But I’ve been told that it should like Retumbo at 2950fps. I haven’t been able to test this yet.

        Is it possible to get some pet load data on the cartridges you have shot? Barrel length, bullet, powder, and what velocities gave the best results of best SD and group size?

        If you choose a 6.5CM but can’t get a good group and SD at anything faster than 3000fps with a Berger 140 is it better that my 7mm IMR 7977 load? Is it better than the expected 2950fps load with Retumbo?

        Maybe putting these numbers into the Applied Ballistics “WAZ” program could lead us to figuring out which one has a better hit percentage at 400,800,1200,1600, yards with 5/10mph wind.

        1. Author

          I tried to provide a mix of examples in that regard. The factory ammo speeds are somewhat typical, though perhaps best case scenario, velocities people have reported. I’d prefer to look at the best case when comparing performance for a reason.

          If you make a comparison, and even with best case numbers projected by a computer you find one caliber emerging as the clear winner…then you know in the real world the differences will potentially be even more profound.

          The 123gr Scenar load in 6.5 is for my AR10 with a 22″ Krieger barrel. It will produce half MOA groups or better but being a gas gun, you have to be really on top of the fundamentals to make it happen. The SD was 7fps using H4350 and CCI Br2 primers.

          The 178gr Hornady HPBT load is for my 308 with a 22″ Rock Creek barrel. I get right around 2700fps with that rifle, suppressed, and it also will do half MOA. SD on that load is 7fps.

          I’m looking into getting my hands on a copy of Applied Ballistics Analytics to run WEZ analysis scenarios for future articles. It isn’t a cheap investment, though!

      2. Hello Rich,
        It is probably my ignorance but I have to ask, respectfully. How can we compare 178, 175 and 155 gr bullet performance with 140 and 123 gr bullets. Should we be comparing 140 and 120 gr rounds for both calibers with similar powder loads shot out of guns with the same length barrels to be most fair?


        1. Author

          I’m not interested in the fairness of the comparison. The idea is to compare what’s commonly used. Generally the more weight you have the better your BC so if anything you’d be giving the heavier bullets the advantage.

          Except that’s not what winds up happening. The 6.5 offerings wind up out performing the 30 Cal offerings in almost every scenario.

          1. Rich is absolutely correct. Yes one can get amazing accuracy out of the lowly .243 (6.16 mm) Winchester, and in fact it comes very close to the 6.5 Cr. You can also knock the stuffings out of an object with the 7.62 x 51. However, in comparing apples to apples the argument gets easier. There is no comparison- any 6.5-6.8 cartridge wins the battle at distance, has neutralizing power, speed to penetrate armor, etc., etc. The real issue here is why did the Swiss and others in Europe use the 6.5 mm cartridge (6.5 x 57) for so long? It takes out any wild game they wish to hunt, including moose and caribou.

            Secondly, I hate to sound like “Paul Revere but the important point is that the U.S. military now realizes what it tried to avoid for so long, both of their primary cartridges are woefully inadequate in today’s world. They spent millions on maintaining the 5.56 in the M4 to be effective when everyone and his brother already knew it was a P.O.S. Change the rifling, increase bullet weight, ya da ya da. The .308 does a good job of putting something down for the count, but it just is not the same as a smaller, lighter, faster bullet that keeps on going like the Energizer bunny. Besides, all the 6 – 6.5 mm cartridges are short action and fit into the AR platform. They could have gone with the .243 years ago! Just saying…

    2. Now…. reality!!!

      There are 100 times more hunters than there are match shooters and the avg shot taken is 300 yrd, give or take a few. Even at 400 yds the drop of the two calibers is virtually IDENTICAL (25 inches) and the wind drift is also virtually identical (10 in vs 12 in). Also, the energy imparted by a .308, is far higher out to over 500 yds and there are far more choice of loads for the .308. So….. thanks, but I will take the .308 every day! Oh… .308 ammo is also cheaper and more plentiful…..

      1. Author

        This site is for people interested in tactical style shooting, to include competition settings. It’s focus is on precision rifle fire at long range distances.

        If you want to argue what makes a better hunting round at 300 yards, you’re in the wrong place. Nobody’s talking about what’s best for a 300 yard hunting shot here.

        1. So why do snipers (insert “long range”, farther than you match shooters shoot) use 308 for two decades and not the creedmore???

          1. Author

            Has more to do with government contracts and logistics than ballistics.

            The Army is switching to 260 I believe as we speak. They just got rid of the Berreta after forever.

        2. For sure, Rich. BTW- the 6.5Cr is hardly to be considered a budget priced rifle. One can get a Ruger American Predator in .243, put on a decent (read, Boyd’s) stock, equip it with a good DBM, and a 3 / 4 – 9 / 12 x 40 scope and shoot all day long on the cheap. But if you want to shoot distance think much more hard-earned dollars.

      2. Hey Joe, I love my .308 BAR style rifle. One would likely have to pry it off my dead hands to get it. That said, I would not attempt a shot at a mulie over 200 yards with or without the .308. My Ruger American Predator in .243- perhaps. Most hunters in the U.S. are Midwest guys who take their with everything down to a 12 ga. slugster with sabots, a .30/.30 or perhaps (fill in the blank) but they don’t readily shoot or attempt to take game at 300 yards. That is reality for sportsmen.

  2. That’s awesome information. I like to know the velocity, SD, and group size. I think it helps me with the expectations for a caliber / cartridge. The WEZ tool is great. I look forward to seeing what you put together.

  3. Hi Rich,
    I’m new to the Creedmoor, but looking forward to some great shooting. I looked the 140gn Amax as the the go to bullet and bought a couple of hundred, but have since hedged my bets by getting 150 Nosler 123gn Custom Comps. The rifle will be a Howa heavy barrelled action and walnut thumbhole stock from a local stock maker here in Australia. Your article was great and bore out all the research I did on the cartridge. My scope by the way will be a Vortex Viper 6.5-20×50.

    1. Author

      Sounds like you’re off to a great start, John! You’ll have to post a picture when you get it put together!

  4. Question about the 6.5 Creed velocity (2850 FPS) used in the comparison articles. Hornady Match 140 A-MAX ammo list 2700 FPS out of a 24″ barrel. I hand load and run the 140 A-MAX and 140 Berger VLD at 2700 to 2750 FPS in my 26″ factory 6.5 Creed barrel. Isn’t 2850 FPS for 6.5 Creed pretty optimistic, especially for the majority of shooters and especially factory ammo?

    1. Author

      I’ve seen several people reporting muzzle velocities between 2800 and 2850 with factory ammo, and certainly people push handloads harder.

      It certainly doesn’t match your experience, for sure. Every barrel is different. I know a guy shooting a DTA and he gets 2950 out 140s but that’s certainly not typical either.

      I can run another chart using 2800 or 2750 if you’re looking for a closer comparison for your rifle, just let me know. At the end of the day every gun is different and no chart or projection will fit for everyone.

  5. Thanks that was a good read I bought my Ruger Percision in a 308 but after reading this article I went ahead and bought me a CBI barrel 6.5 Creedmore and in 22in heavy barrel.
    I have not shot it nor have I placed the new 6.5 barrel on it yet. I’m from around four Bragg and there are not too many places to shoot long-distance on the civilian side.

    1. Author

      Make sure you read Don’s articles on Ruger upgrades, the barrel is really on there and you’ll need some special tools to swap it

  6. Thank you for the very interesting article. I did some long distance shooting back in 1968 while in the USMC with .308/7.62. I am becoming very interested in trying it again now (for fun) and I believe that I will try the 6.5 Creedmore. Thank you again for posting your article…it helped.

  7. Really impressed with the article! Looking into long range shooting, after learning with a high performance .223, was looking into .308, but you’ve clearly changed my mind! Wondering what recommendations you had for a sub MOA rifle, savage? Remington? Tikka? Also, with handloading, what would be your best recommendation for powders, bullet grain, and so on? I realize every rifle shoots differently, but it would be nice to have a good starting point. Thanks a lot!

    1. Author

      These days I think if you can find a Ruger Precision Rifle that’s a hard rifle to pass by and start with something else. You can purchase it in 6.5 Creedmoor, there is a huge amount of aftermarket support for them, and you will probably get better accuracy out of the box than a Remington. You can purchase a Remington SPS cheaper, but accuracy is probably not going to be what you want it to be. You can put some money into a Remington and make it a really tight shooting rifle, but by the time you do you’ve probably spent more than you would have on the Ruger. So that’s my advice. Make some calls and start searching around, use Gunbroker if you have to, and try to get your hands on one.

      If you’re going to load 6.5 Creedmoor I think Hodgdon H4350 is THE powder. If you are running a 26″ or so barrel I’d take a hard look at 140gr Berger Hybrids or if you want a little more velocity and a little less ballistic coefficient, the Berger AR Hybrid 130gr bullets. Welcome to the obsession!

    2. My entry level Creedmoor is a Howa heavy barrel and action. I purchased a thumbhole stock for it from a local stock maker simply because I like walnut stocks. My scope is a Vortex Viper 6-24×50 with a 20moa rail. I tried all sorts of loads and combinations and settled on H4350 or ADI 2209 as it’s known here with either a 130gn Berger VLD match or the 140gn model. I have brass from Hornady, Norma and Nosler, with the Nosler being the most consistent. My rifle has a 24inch barrel and will shoot under 2inches at 500yards. Not bad for a Howa, but they are known for having good barrels. After reading one of Rich’s posts I also tried 123gn Nosler Custom Comps and was impressed by one and one half inch groups at 300. I did us Varget for the lighter bullets.

  8. Rich, glad I found this site, helped me make up my mind on trying out the Savage 10 BA Stealth in 6.5 Creedmoor vs. the .308. It will have the 24″ bbl . Will have to put it through its paces with supplied factory fodder, if I decide to keep it, will then probably load for it. Your data tipped the scales….. If it works as well as I think, will probably sell my F-class AR. as it’s a tad heavy to tote after coyotes now

  9. I love my 6.5 Creedmoor. I did have a question though….. realistically I won’t shoot at an animal past 500-600 yards based on conditions. I just don’t feel comfortable. Too much room for error. I’m looking at purchasing another caliber so I can elk hunt because the 6.5 only shoots 143g or smaller. Would I be better off with a .308 and just limit myself to 500-600 yards? A 168g or 175g would help on the bigger animal. I don’t want a 300wm or 7mm. I want to stay away from big guns that kick the crap out of you. I run BallisticsARC and love it. I’m sure the 6.5 would probably work but based on charts would I be better off with 168g bullet @ 1100 lbs energy or 143g with 1300 lbs energy? This is at 500 yards.

  10. Hi Richard, I don’t consider the Creedmoor as a viable game getter at anything past 300yards. In fact that’s as far as I want to shoot game anyway. However, my favourite long range hunting cartridge remains the 270 Winchester. Mine is a Montana ASR with a 4-12 Vortex Diamondback. It loves 140gn SST’s and 4831sc. Chrono’ed them at 3,062fps.

      1. HI Rich, I reckon they are one of the best value for money scopes on the market mate, I have another one on my mod 70 Featherweight in 243W. That load in my 270 is not all that hot, at least as far as I can determine. I’m using CCI standard LR primers and there’s no sign of flattening or hard bolt lift. I only shoot 3 round groups in a hunting rifle because of lighter barrels, and I reckon that if you haven’t killed it with 3 shots it might be time to try something else. It gives me consistent .75″ groups at 100 and a bit over the inch at 200 where I have it sighted dead on.

        1. Author

          Nice, John! Didn’t mean to imply it was a hot load, just that those 270s get bigger bullets movin’ moreso than some other calibers!

          1. No worries Rich, it was pretty devastating on the last Fallow deer I shot with it. I think I’ll save it for the bigger ones in future.

  11. I recently killed a muley in Wyoming at 491 yards with the creedmoor. 143g ELDX pass through double lung. I sold a .270 to purchase my 6.5. I am a big fan of the cartridge. It’s amazing! Just reading up on different cartridges and curious as to what my next purchase should be if I want to go bigger. Thanks for the info. I sure appreciate it. My father just bought a .300wm xbolt long range hunter so I guess I will just borrow his if I get a chance to go after big game.

  12. I just put all the info of the .270 Montana rifle into BallisticsARC and at 500yds your 140g SST is traveling at 2140fps and still has 1423lbs of energy. My 6.5 only has a muzzle velocity of 2742fps with 143g ELDX but is running 2059fps with 1345lbs energy at 500 yards. The creedmoor actually surpasses the .270 after about 700 yards even with 200 plus fps slower muzzle velocity. The creedmoor just produces almost the same performance with about half the recoil and in some cases (longer ranges) the 6.5 wins. I have a cheap set up and it’s a tack driver. Ruger American Predator with a Vortex HST 4x16x44 mil dot retical. BallisticsARC is awesome and worth every penny! Thanks and straight shooting!

    1. Hi Richard,
      I agree with you on the figures you’ve quoted there, and it’s probably one of the reasons the 270 never made it as a target cartridge. But for hunting use I prefer to keep my shots inside 300yards. Two main reasons; the further out you shoot game, the better chance of wounding and it getting away. Five hundred yards is giving the animal a pretty good head start on you, then there’s the other reason’ you have to go and drag it back. I like getting as close as possible.

      1. Yeah me too. I grew up hunting in places where my longest shot ever was 140yds. When I planned the Mule deer hunt everyone said to get good at longer ranges. They were right. I shot the one at 491 on the last day. It was harder than I thought it would be to get really close. Too wide open. Hopefully I never have to take another shot at that distance but it’s pretty cool knowing I can if I need to.

        1. Hi Richard, I think that there are times when you have no other option but to shoot at long range, especially in mountainous country like New Zealand or your Rockies. In this case you must be prepared for it and know exactly what you and your rifle is capable of. Nothing you don’t already know of course.
          I guess this is where plenty of range time is invaluable.

  13. I know I’m a little slow, like 2 yrs in responding to the 6.5 vs 308 comparison. But I do agree there’s no comparison! 6.5 is much better in ballistics! The only thing I feel that would keep me from getting the 6.5 is availability of ammo in a store in a emergency situation. 308 availability in quantities is easier to get in the AR platform. And 1,000 yd shooting is a rare situation unless your in the military or a crazy bench shooter. I say that because I know some bench rest shooters that are a little different! Thanks for your articles!

    1. Author

      Looked at it a bunch before I built my 6.5 Creedmoor. I haven’t done a comparison article but if it’s something people want to see it’s not hard to put together. Went with the Creedmoor for the factory ammo options over the 7mm08

  14. Hi

    I have a bit of a dilemma.

    I’ll live in a state that allows hunting with semiautomatic rifles and suppressors, so I’m looking at AR-10 format rifles for hunting. Typical local hunts will include whitetail deer, and hog. The forest here is rather thick and the longest shooting range within a 1hr drive is 600 yards.

    I have two rifles I’m looking at differ in their barrels:

    AR-10 18″ 1:10 .308 Barrel
    AR-10 22″ 1:8 6.5CM Barrel

    Both are about 9lb with an empty mag and without a scope. The price for each is about the same as well.

    I figured I’d use either 150gr for the .308 or 129gr for the 6.5CM since I hunt CXP2 game.

    My main question is which would you pick? Is there even a performance difference between the two in my usage scenario?

    1. Author

      I’d go with the Creedmoor, the ballistics are better than 308 and you don’t want to miss or wound an animal.

  15. How does the creedmore compare in penatration or hard targets, say, if it was for shtf, or shooting through cover? I am a week or 2 away from my next rifle purchase, have been looking at a recon g2 in 308, however this discussion has peaked my interest, and i found a 6.5 creedmore nib for half the msrp! Im a decent shooter, but getting to the point where i dont think 1000 yd shot is viable for me, and would likely disengage at that distance in a survival situation if possible, or get closer in a hunting situation, if possible. I see that the creedmore out preforms, is there a situation or area where the 308 would be a better round for the job? Great article, thanks for the info. Im an old marine machine gunner, but pretty handy with the smaller 5.56, so i really want to step up to something more immediatly devastating at 600yds.

    1. Author

      If you’re worried about two legged quarry for whatever reason, more energy in target is better. I’m not a big hunter but I have friends who do and often hear 1000ft/lbs as a rule of thumb for energy.

      Both 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor exceed that at 500yds but the 308 has more mass, and therefore, more energy at that distance. Keep in mind when considering your SHTF scenarios the likely limiting factor will be target identification.

      A war zone is easier, everybody “over there” is a bad guy. Something big happens at home and you can’t just shoot at anybody with a gun at 500yds. That’s a whole other can of worms and not really my specialty.

  16. Very good point rich. Im not a huge hunter either, rather just want the capability if the situation arises. I have one other question that our fellow enthusiest may be able to assist. Im deciding between a dpms g2 recon in 308, or a primary arms mk2 mod1 in creedmore. Both are about the same price, within 200 bucks, the creedmore retails for a good bit more and comes nib, 308 has approx. 80 rounds through it and comes with geissele trigger upgrade. Im working on a 1500$ budget, so at 1000 and 1200, both are great deals i think. Is this a hands down creedmore? The creedmore is a long stroke piston platform, 308 is di.would this sway your choice one way or the other? Thanks again for your opinion and ballistics facts. Im new to the longer range game, having only had 5.56 and 7.62×39 experience, so any knowledge and opinion is well appreciated and reguarded.

    1. Author

      You’re adding more moving parts with a piston driven AR. Moving parts make it harder to shoot accurately. I’ve heard piston is more reliable, but less accurate at distance but couldn’t speak to group sizes as my AR10 is DI. I’m not sure what the Seekins Precision AR10s are running but maybe give them a look.

  17. ** correction**
    Pws or primary weapon systems. Not the before mentioned primary arms.

    1. Author

      You can’t really do it, John, you can link to it but that’s it. That’s more of a Forum/Discussion feature.

      1. No worries Rich, the Howa is going to get re-barrelled to 6mm BR. And I have a Savage 12 LRP on order in 6.5 Creedmoor. The Savage will be getting a Nightforce 12-42×54 Precision Bench rest scope.

  18. For those of you interested, the BallisticsARC app has changed the game for me. It’s so user friendly and has taught me a ton. I am not affiliated with the company whatsoever. I speak as a happy customer. It is the best $15 I have ever spent as far as shooting goes. It’s definitely worth looking into. It’s made by geoballistics.

    Those of you talking about bullets. My CM loves the 143g Hornady ELD-X. It also shoots the 140g amax great. I shoot these a lot just because I bought a whole bunch of them right when I bought my rifle, but once they run out it will be ELDX only. Cheers.

  19. Rich. I have a comparison question for you, and I would like to hear your honest opinion. Would you put a 6.5cm GAP custom (Surgeon) bolt action up against a Desert Tech SRS A-1 in the same caliber? Primary application 50% hunting 50% target. Price is about the same.

    1. Author

      I’d lean towards the DTA, Chris, because you can swap calibers with that system so it’s a touch more versatile for the money.

      As far as accuracy, I’m sure they both shoot better than either of us!

  20. Thanks, concur, I have screwed up more shots that I care to admit. I just stumbled across ed this site. Seams a lot more friendly than some of the others. Good god ask a question like that elsewhere and they would have labeled me the village idiot.

    1. Author

      Well, this site is all about helping each other out and sharing information. Questions are welcome!

  21. Hi Rich,
    Great article. As someone stated above, I’d like to see a 7mm-08 vs 6.5 CM comparison.
    Im about to pull the trigger on a barrel for my ar10 and lm on the fence about these calibers. The only thing holding me back from the 7mm-08 is the OAL in an ar10 mag. Id like to know what bullets could be loaded to mag leangth that could beat the CM. It may only be able to take a 168. Hornady just came out with a 150 eldx for the 7mm that might be a contender. Thoughts?

    1. Author

      My guess is the Creedmoor wins, at least in a short action and loaded to mag length. Getting a bigger bullet moving at even the same speed with roughly the same case capacity is difficult.

      I would have to do some research ahead of a comparison article with those two cartridges.

      1. No AR for me my new one is a Savage LRP 6.5 with a Nightforce Precision BR scope. The previous 6.5 is being re-barrelled to 6BR. I’ll use the 6BR out to 300 and the Creedmoor past that. I have my doubts if I’ll have another 308.

  22. hi
    i was just wondering what the recoil differences were like between the 308 and the 6.5

    1. Author

      The 6.5 is a touch lighter but it’s not a huge difference. If recoil is an issue for you start looking at muzzle brakes, that makes a much bigger difference than a smaller caliber.

      1. Rich. I have been trying to wrap my mind around the various differences between the 7.62 & 6.5 CM. I understand sectional density, bullet drop, wind bucking ability, velocity etc. Tell me if i’m interpreting the meaning of energy correctly. In a hunting application, say at around 300 yds. If a 7.62 delivers more energy than a 6.5cm does that mean the 308 has more of a terminal effect say on a 300 boar hog. Or should think of it as, the 6.5 will?

        1. Author

          Energy is just what it sounds like, it’s how much punch is delivered to the target at that distance with that bullet and set of conditions. Higher energy hits harder, lower energy hits softer.

          Depending on the distance, speed of the bullet, weight of the bullet, etc. it’s possible a smaller bullet could deliver more energy at a closer range if it’s making up for the weight deficit in velocity.

  23. I’m looking to buy the Ruger precision rifle. I’m just wondering what round 308 or 6.5 has the best stopping power at 600 yards or less.

      1. Personally I wouldn’t depend on either of them to stop much at that range. Putting holes in paper is one thing but bringing down animal with any sort of certainty is not really either cartridges strong point. Let’s say you wound the animal at that range and you have to follow it up. It has a 600yard head start on you. So unless you want to shoot varmints and / or you no other option than to shoot at that sort of distance better to get something that will deliver a greater dose of energy at that range.

  24. Hmmm…..clearly the cartridge is superior…..so is a .50 bmg. The actual advantage of 7.62/.308 is commonality, cost, availability, and knowledge of the round. I can reload match grade rounds for .85 cents…..simple plinking rounds .50 cents. Simply a much cheaper gun to shoot plus much cheaper rounds……i do believe you…..the 6.5 is superior….just to practical….. This is a similar situation to 300 winmag, 50 bmg, 338 lapua, etc. Better rounds…..just not common….and not practical to the normal shooter.

  25. So the 6.5 is a better caliber at long ranges. Is it available in the AR platform like the AR 10 in .308?

  26. It’s probably worth mentioning that the US Army is seriously considering replacing the 7.62 NATO family weapons AND 5.56 NATO with the 6.5 CR based on some of the very information here. Incidentally, 6.5 is a caliber. 6.5 Creedmoor is a cartridge.

  27. Thanks, Rich. A very well written article, without a lot of excessive rubbish. Concise and to the point. I am a .308 Winchester fan, but have been looking at the 6.5 CM for a little better long range ballistics. You sold me, and did so with information, and not self indulgent propaganda. Kudos, brother.

  28. Hi Rich,

    I’ve been in the market to purchase a Remington 700 SPS .308 (left handed) and drop it into an XLR Evolution chassis, but all of a sudden I’m kinda swaying towards the Ruger Precision Rifle in a 6.5Cm, however, I don’t know if the buttstock has an ambidextrous design (because I’m left-handed)…..do you happen to know this?

    Also – on the topic of a Ruger Precision Rifle – do you recommend it? This is going to be my first .308 (or 6.5CM) as I currently shoot a CZ .22LR, and thought it was time to step it up a few notches (I ONLY DO TARGER SHOOTING)

    I am really confused on caliber and rifle selection…please help 🙂 Really would appreciate any help and advice.

    Any help/advice is appreciated. Cheers, Dan

    1. Author

      Remington has models in 6.5CM now (better late than never) so don’t overlook that. I think the Ruger is a better buy. There are a host of articles on it that Don wrote.

      The Ruger is a better buy these days.

      1. I went for the Savage 12 LRP in the Creed and never looked back. I’m pretty sure the stock is ambidextrous and the rifle shoots great.

        1. Hi John,

          Thanks for your input 🙂

          I’m deciding between the Remington 700 .308 and the Ruger Precision Rifle 6.5CM…

          Go the RPR?

          1. If I was going to decide between the RPR and the Remington I’d be choosing the Ruger. But I never been a big Remington fan.

      1. I will look at it right now. Also – is the Ruger Precision Rifle a varmint barrel?

        1. Author

          I don’t know, buddy, not sure how they classify the factory contour of the rifle but you can always compare specs to known contours for an idea.

  29. Do you know if I can shoot the Ruger being LH? I definitely want a tactical rifle.
    So – you recommend the 6.5CM over the .308?

    As mentioned – this is my first powerful caliber

    Thanks for getting back to me so soon!


  30. Hello Rich.

    My son (13, almost 14) and I have always enjoyed marksmanship. He has a Marlin 60 22lr rifle and is a solid shot at 30 yards.

    I’ve been thinking of stepping up for fun and I saw a Ruger Precision rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor and the salesman @ Cabelas said it was a flatter, better performance round than the 308. Found this blog and feel compelled to buy the rifle in the 6.5 caliber.

    Do you feel it’s a good platform to get my son into and prepare him for competition shooting?



    1. Author

      Absolutely, Pavel! There’s less recoil with the 6.5 Creedmoor and the ballistics will make for a more forgiving caliber. It’s an excellent first rifle!

    2. Hi Pavel,

      I ended up purchasing the Ruger Precision Rifle and decided to proceed with the 6.5CM, which this forum helped me decide. And, as mentioned, the 6.5CM has much better BC. I think It’s a good calibre for entry level and for less recoil.


  31. Hi Rich,

    Quick question – can I put my .308 muzzle break on the 6.5CM barrel? I mean, apart from the fact that the thread pitch needs to be matched by getting the barrel cut and re-threaded….

    Please advise


    1. Author

      Yup. Long as the caliber is bigger it’s fine. Obviously you wouldn’t want to go the other way, like a 6.5mm brake on a 308…

      1. I thought so, but wasn’t 100% sure. Thanks for confirming that, Rich 🙂

  32. I know you seem to push the Ruger but the Savage fcp Sr does it for 1/3 the cost and barrel replacement is done at home for less then 400.

  33. Thanks Rich for a great article. I had this decision before I bought my RPR. .308 v 6.5cm. I got the cm after alot of research. Should have found your site earlier, would have saved some sleepless nights. I have shot wild pigs out to 400 meters (Australia) with great success, in and out through the shoulders. Cheers Clive Dingle

  34. Both good rounds but I have to say it since no one else will… The 260 Rem is ballistically speaking identical to the 6.5 Creedmor and the brass supposedly will last longer (this comes from the guy at Snipers Hide). Odd that the 260 has been around for 20 years, yet the 6.5 is taking off like no tomorrow. Pure marketing genius by the guys at Hornady…. Would love to see a comparison of similar weight bullets, regardless of caliber. How about a heavy bullet in the 6.5 and a super light bullet in a 308? I think if that was done there would be many more similarities than differences, they all have there place.

    1. I got into long range shooting about 5 years ago and the .260 was the popular cartridge. I put a .260 together and have enjoyed it.

      I think Rich did a slight comparison of the heavy bullet 6.5 and light bullet .308. Basically at shorter distances the .308 will be best. But for longer distances the heavier bullet with higher BC will be best.

      Recently I bought a .308 for practice because I can buy Federal GMM with the 168gr Sierra Matchking bullet for $0.84 a round on gunbroker. I realize the original article was done a while ago and times have changed since then.

  35. What do you think about the new Bergara B14 BMP and B14 HMR?

    1. Author

      Heard good things but don’t have either myself. I’d lean towards the BMP because it’s unlikely to experience any bedding issues.

  36. Thank you for answer. Her in Norway the BMP cost around 1900 dollar and the Ruger 2400 dollar so its a difference

  37. Finally understood. If you want precision shooting between 500 and 1000 meters, thanks go with 6.5. If you shoot up to 500 meters go with a 308 and be happy!!!

  38. I have been shooting .308 for
    about 4 years. I didn’t know 6.5CM existed when I bought my .308. I would rebarrell tomorrow except I have enough supplies to reload about 2000 rnds of .308.

    However, I disagree with the cost of factory rounds for .308. I have been buying from Target Sports USA the entire time. The most I have ever paid for 168 GMM was $200 per case with 0 sales tax and free shipping by the case. 175 GMM is currently selling for $200 per case and 168 is about $180 so that’s $18 to $20 per box. ELD’s are superior but you can’t beat $18 a box for GMM.

  39. First I’d like to say I’m no expert at anything.. But it seems to me that if I was to shoot out long distance, say 1000 yards or so, I would want a heavy bullet. The test you made were with light bullets and the wind plays tough with them. Doesn’t seem like a fair test to me but again I’m no expert.. I believe the heaviest bullet you showed was 178g . Even that isn’t going to cut it going out to 1000 with wind as a major factor. Also were these hand loads or out of the box rounds? Something’s doesn’t sound right to me but I’m no expert. Thanks

    1. Author

      It’s a ballistics comparison, Ray, and I chose common bullet weights for the comparison. 178gr is on the upper end of weight for 308 Winchester. It’s based on a handload I use for 308 which performs better than factory ammunition. Same with the Creedmoor example.

      If you want to use something heavier in either caliber, have at it. The problem is your trajectory starts getting very steep. You might get a little extra windage out of it but it’s not worth the velocity loss. A steep trajectory is only going to work on a square range where distances are known.

      140gr is about max for the Creedmoor and 178gr is on the upper end for 308. Hope that helps.

  40. I’ve been researching a good rifle/calibre combination for most of this year and just a few days ago I found this site and particular thread. I have decided to buy a Ruger Precision in 6.5CM, and a Vortex Viper 6-24 x 50 FFP in MRAD with Vortex Tactical Matched Rings. I’ve already bought the scope, and will place the order for the RPR in the coming weeks. The information on this site has given me great confidence that I’ve made the right choices. I’ve been away from shooting for 40 years, and have just taken it back up again, reapplied for my license, (I’m in Australia), gone through a few safety courses and joined a club. I’m currently undergoing handgun training and will apply for handgun in six months time when I’ve served out the waiting period. However, my main interest is long range shooting, I’ll probably be shooting out to 1000 yards, not much longer as the ranges around here don’t get that long. I’d like to thank all those that have left posts, they’ve been highly illuminating and I’ll be regularly checking back in and probably sharing a few thoughts. One question i have is about the Coriolis Effect on long range shooting. I’ve done a little research and there seems to be numerous conflicting thoughts on this subject. Some say it has an effect, some say it does not. I’m currently undecided until I can experiment myself and draw a conclusion. What are peoples thoughts on this issue?

    1. Author

      It’s unlikely to be significant until you shoot in excess of 1000yds, some say even as far as 1500.

    2. There is a good youtube video that demonstrate it perfectly at 1000 yards but cant find it right now. The guy shoots 1000 yards in one direction then 1000 yards in the other. It almost seems like it was Long Range University or GunWerks. For their particular cartridge, it seems like the affect was appx. 4″ high or low depending on whether they were shooting due east or due west respectively. No affect north or south. It all depends on how long it takes your bullet to get to the target and where you located at the time you shoot.

    3. I lived in Aus for 3 years. Couldn’t handle the over impressive regs and the absolutely insane fascist government. As a gun owner for my entire adult life, I was shocked at the difficulty imposed by the Aussie Gov to get into the shooting sports. You guys gave up way too much when some “supposed wacko” snipered a bunch of innocents with his “handgun” with rifle accuracy. Best of luck, would love to have you here in America.

  41. Hi Rich, that Savage lrp is shooting up to expectations. I settled on a load of 42.5 grains of h4350 and a 140gn Berger vld target. So far my best group at 500m is 1.89inch. I’ be moving out to 1,000m pretty soon.

  42. You say: “As you can see from the graph, the 175gr Sierra approaches 400 inches of drop at 1000 yards, it’s lobbed more than 32ft in the air in order to connect after fighting gravity out to the target.” NOT true.

    This is a common misconception by those who haven’t studied the physics of ballistics. It stems from the fact that if you have a 100yd zero and you aim at a 1000-yard target (without changing your scope) the bullet will impact about 33 feet low. That does NOT mean that your bullet will be lobbed 33 feet above the line of sight to the point of impact.

    In fact, when you adjust your scope zero from 100 yds to1000 yds in an attempt to hit the target, the bullet path reaches a peak of 143.1” above the light of sight. That’s only 12 feet, not “more than 32 feet”. This fact is easy to determine with any of the common ballistics apps.

  43. I noticed that there was no foot pounds of energy and also which one has the best bullet selection for reloading ?

  44. Hello, the name’s Rich D. Can you tell me how these two (6.5 and 7.62) stand up against the 7.62 x 54. Thanks

    1. Author

      I don’t know much about the 7.62×54 other than it’s an old cartridge originally for the Mosin. Given modern bullets and powders I’m going to say 308 Win and 6.5 Creed will thoroughly stomp it. Now if you start getting fancy and hand loading your own stuff that’s a whole other ballgame. Again, not really well versed in the x54 but there are probably more modern choices better suited for tactical rifle.

  45. Well written! Thanks for taking the time to “lay it all out.” I didn’t read through all the comments (hardly any, actually) and one thing for accuracy, regardless of caliber, that people seem to ignore is diet and exercise. A cup of coffee, a little chocolate, whatever you put in your body and your level of conditioning will have a noticeable impact downrange.

  46. This is great information if you are shooting PAPER! If you are hunting anything larger than is equipped with paws or makes fawns you need energy. Go with the .30 over 300 yards if you want to knock it down.

    I think this debate is kept alive because of context. No one should should be trying to kill large game with either of these rounds at 1,000 yards although I’m all for inflicting ANY damage to the large fury elk killers (wolves). 6.5 has an amazing BC, I would love to see a 25-06 with a BC over .50 heck if it were even close to the 6.5 Creedmoor at .64 it would become the new ‘hipster’ round – for PAPER.

  47. Rich – glad I found this forum. Great article. still trying to figure out the .308 vs 6.5 – intended range is 700-800 yards. What are your thoughts on the Tikka T3x TAC A1 in either caliber? Thanks for sharing your expertise!

      1. Well, if this is anything to go by, I recently took delivery of a Tikka T3x Tac 1 6.5CM, put a Vortex Viper 6-24 x 50 FFP with a Spuhr mount, shot it in with approx 60 rounds and last weekend I shot a 5 shot group on a bipod and rear bag at 11.2mm, 5 shots through the same hole at 200m. This was using Hornady 140g Match ELD factory rounds. Winchester Match 140g at the same distance gave me a 10 shot group at 72 mm. I’m yet to put my own reloads through it but the results with the Hornady Match are promising to say the least.

  48. Thank you for the comments from all. I will probably go with the 6.5! Very glad I found this page!!!

  49. It’s a good argument but I’d grab the .308 any day instead on the 6.5 Creedmoor because first off the ballistics aren’t as good but I can have a bigger bullet if needed secondly how many people are going to use a rifle practically for hunting because in my experience you will not see a deer 1000 meters away unless your camp out for a while or hell even home defence at a long range such as 1000 meters not only that but you can get some nice .308 rifles that are used anywhere and they are cheap as dirt and dependable plus a extra 40 gr bullet puts a hell of extra wallop

  50. I hear this argument 6.5 creedmore beats .308 Win. but it’s interesting how every time it arises it’s comparing apples to oranges. You can’t compare 175gr round to a 140gr. From any equipment. Compare a 150gr 6.5 Creedmore to a 150gr .308 Win. Or a 140 to a 140 make them Nosler BTHP for instance.
    Look at the ballistic charts from a Hornady ballistic book but match weight for weight.
    And tell me what you find.

    1. Author

      Thanks for the suggestion, Jess. When the article was written those were and still are pretty commonly used bullet weights. Both in factory and handloaded ammunition.

      I’d rather compare what’s actually used in common practice over what’s statistically and academically an accurate comparison.

      1. Wow! So the conversation remains the same. It works in favor of the 6.5 if you’re comparing a heavier .308 bullet to a light 6.5 bullet.
        Apple’s to Apple’s the .308 beats the 6.5 all the way around if you look at the data…

        1. Author

          What “data”? They’ve only just released a 150gr projectile for the 6.5. When this article was written, it didn’t exist. They still aren’t in common use, they’re brand new.

          What about solids? They have even higher BCs and skew the conversation further. It’s never apples to apples, real life doesn’t set everything up to be perfectly fair.

  51. First off, I want to say thank you for the great article. I had been debating and this helped make my caliber decision a lot easier. So here’s my problem now…I can’t really afford a ruger precision and nice glass to sit on top of it. Is there any budget friendlier option that can get similar accuracy? I was thinking some model of savage would probably be the best value, but you probably know better than me. Also how about for optics? My main uses would be long range shooting and hunting a hog from time to time. Thank you.

  52. Then why is it that US snipers used the 308 for decades and not the 6.5? Answer because drift and drop are easily correctable….

  53. Probably because of logistics, I’m sure you understand that we, as well as a lot of other countries, have been producing TONS of 7.62×51 for a very long time. 6.5 creedmoor just became a thing relatively recently. 7.62×51 isn’t the only cartridge our snipers use by the way, some are far more effective. But if you look at NATO, the countries use the same bullets generally speaking even if they aren’t fired from the same guns.

    I am definetly a fan of 7.62×51 (.308 Winchester on the civilian side) and a skilled marksman can make impressive shots with it at range, but it’s old technology. Basically it’s a shorter 30-06, which as you probanly know was around in WW1. If there are advancements in bullets, powder, etcetera and a better round can be developed that has advantages over the 308 I see no reason NOT to use it, especially as a handloader. Being a civilian I can pick whatever bullet I think is best, not whatever rifle chambered in whatever round is handed out.

    1. It’s like trying to reason with a liberal. Lay the facts on the table and they still want to say it is not true.
      Sold my GAP 308, and now have four 6.5 Creedmoor bolt action hunting and target rifles and one 6.5G. It all boils down to proper shot placement.
      Consider me UNSUBSCRIBED

      1. Author

        Chris is correct, shot placement matters way more than ballistics, always has and always will.

  54. Hi Rich,

    You may have already commented on it above, but can you comment on “kill distance” for deer with 6.5 Creedmoor for each of the loads you discussed (123gr, 129gr, and 140gr)? -Just wondering how far you could “practically” shoot a deer-sized animal and expect drop it? -Thinking it over, guess it depends on muzzle velocity also (which depends on barrel length). -So, for grins, assume a 22″ barrel with whatever associated ballistics for that sized barrel.

  55. Rich, Wow, great article, thanks!!

    I have one questions, I have a 6.5×55 Mauser my Grandfather sportierized and I don’t want to take it hunting in Colorado, where I live from fear of it getting damaged.

    I’m looking for a hunting and range rifle, one of those “It will be my go to gun and hand me down guns”. Would you recommend a 6.5 Creed over a 308? I’m not hunting elephants but Elk and Deer mostly with a piggy to boot. Or some other caliber; 30-06, 5.56?

    Thanks again for the input and the article!!

  56. Say what you want Rich against 308. For every 6.5 creedmore in the home of an American, there are at least 1000 times that amount of rifles already in the hands of those who own 308. That will not change anytime soon.

    There has been much hype on several other calibers, the hype last 10-20 years then death fast approaches. Sig 357 is one, and so is the 38 super.

    Marketing is just that, marketing to purchase the latest and greatest product that is ‘slightly better’.

    It has already been established, and this is the nail in the coffin, with a premium rifle, and premium round the 243, 308, and 6.5 will ALL do under 0.25 to 0.5 MOA. So, what is the fuss ?

    It appears, you may be the inventor of or one that receives compensation in some way, judging by your responses on this URL, one to find 6.5 as the “be all” and, “do all” mock up.

  57. This article is now 2.5 years old and time has done nothing but validate the 6.5 Creedmoor as THE go-to cartridge for the high powered hunter/sportsman/marksman/tinkerer/defender. Just do it folks. Anything you used to do with .243, .270, 30-30, .308, 30-06 can now be done with the Creed, at least on a consumer/amateur basis in North America, possibly short of gunning for bear where you would want big bone crunching rounds. For those worried about a shtf situation, order a replacement .308 barrel or complete upper and any associated mounting hardware/special tools for YOUR RIFLE, and a couple of thousand rounds of .308 and store them both in your safe…hopefully never to be touched again until you die and will it all to your progeny.

  58. Oi folks!

    Thank you very much for the work-it is very much appreciated!


    .308Win-Breaking a Lance

    With all the huff and puff for the 6,5 Creedmoor, I thought it’d be time for me to let you know my take on this.
    The 6,5 CM is an outstanding cartridge, ballistically surpassing the .308 Win in every respect.
    But is it the better cartridge?

    For me, it is not.

    Several years back I had just dropped out of service and was to decide on a general purpose cartridge for my personal setup.
    The 6,5 Creed was very alluring.

    But I had a long, hard look at my situation and decided on the the old, venerable .308.

    And here is why….

    I’m a ranger-hunter, scout, traveler, soldier and a prepared citizen, a prepper if you like.
    I use my rifles to fill up the fridge, for precision shooting and to protect me and my loved ones against critters of all sorts-be they four legged (I live in Grizzly country) or two legged thugs in a SHTF scenario.

    I’m a true believer in that you have to use your gear and condition muscle memory on a regular basis if you want to achieve any kind of proficiency.
    To that regard, there are a few factors that come into play as to decide on the appropriate cartridge.

    Ammunition has to be available.
    That’s a big one!
    If you have no or limited access to resupply you are bound to be in trouble.
    The best gear ain’t gonna help you out there.

    Let me tell you a little story here.
    I drive Hyundai Starex 4×4, its my daily wheels as well as my Bug Out Vehicle.
    It’s a bad boy, I had it rigged up so with all the bells and whistles……but….
    Once when off-roading in the Canadian backcountry one of the shocks broke.
    It’s all very special stuff, everything custom made because you just can’t get anything from stock for a rare beast like this.
    So I had to order new shocks from Europe…..and after a couple of weeks I was cruising again.
    In a SHTF Scenario this is bad news!
    Hell-it was bad enough as it was in perfectly peaceful conditions!

    So I don’t care if I can get 6,5CM at Midway or Cabelas. Because maybe you don’t want Big Brother to know what and how much ammo you have stored or go through in a year or whatnot.
    Maybe you want to buy local.
    You will find .308 and 30-06 together with .303 British and .223 in all of the Americas, from Alaska to Patagonia, even in the smallest general store.

    This can’t be said for the 6,5 Creed.

    And that’s where you may have to or want to go to when the situation deteriorates.
    Yes, you can and should stockpile.
    But what if you have to move a couple hundred miles away of your planned hiding place?
    What if you have to move a couple thousand?

    That’s not far fetched either!

    And if they don’t have it now, they are not gonna have it when the situation goes tits up and the shit starts flying.

    This might change when the US military adopts this fine cartridge-I hope they do!
    It’ll make life so much easier for the soldiers, safer too.
    It’ll also obliterate the .308. and .223, being better than both by a long shot.
    But even if they do-will I change to 6,5?

    Probably not.

    Because by the time they did and the cartridge has become popular worldwide I will have had several decades of training with the .308 and be to old to make that move to profit from it.

    You will also find the .308 in Asia, Africa, Europe, Oceania.
    Maybe not your preferred fast flying 110grs Varmint load or hard hitting 220grs.
    More likely it’ll be a universal 150grs bullet.

    But it will be available.

    And it’ll hit what you shoot at if you do your homework.
    Maybe you have to go a bit closer but it will drop it.

    The only place where I would change was in the former Soviet Union.
    I’d go with a 7,62×39 and be happy.
    Not the best choice against those Brownies there but there you go…you’ll propably sport an AK variant anyway so you could just blast away if need be.
    Just keep in mind that the 7,62 R is ballistically similar to the .30-30 and adapt to that.

    The next point is versatility.
    I want to shoot out to a 1000 yards for plinking, be able to hit two legged critters at 800m and drop them, hunt CPX3 game to let’s say 400 yards e.g. sheep or elk, and it has to function reliable in a semi automatic.
    All this is true for .308, 30-06 and 6,5CM.
    I want the cartridge to come in a broad spectrum of bullet weights and factory ammo.
    Here, the 6,5 CM is out.

    So here is the thing.

    I’m not looking for a one does all rifle (even if I was I’d go with .308 because of the reasons pointed out here but if resupply wasn’t a factor you could do worse than going with the Creed), because I was going for a whole setup.

    Tactical rifle, hunting rifle, semi automatic.

    It needs to perform out of shorter barrels as well.

    The 6,5 needs a 24″ barrel, the 30-06 a 22″ barrel if you plan to get the advertised performance.

    The .308 Win was designed to perform in short, 20″ barrels!

    Use fast burning powder like the H4895 and Bob’s your uncle.

    The spectrum of the .308 is only surpassed by the 30-06, which nowadays isn’t popular in semi automatic weapons anymore.

    It is also a bit more stout in recoil.

    That’s why back in the day, before the 6 and 6,5 mm calibers became popular in North America, the .308 was ruling in benchresting.
    The 30-06 has a flatter trajectory but because of the recoil making precise shots is more difficult.
    Everyone can shoot a .308-come on, it’s been around in Asia and Africa and the Near Middle East in the hands of kids forever.
    A well respected Sniper instructor from the German special forces likes to point out that from any given caliber you cut the top and lower third and the rest is what you work with.

    I disagree.

    The 180 or even 200 grains in .308 has a spectacular track record on heavy bodied game.
    Also, because I live off the grid a good part of the year, in North America, I absolutely prefer Lever Action rifles in the bush and on horseback.
    No snagging when pulling out of the scabbard, fast reloads, easy to use left and right handed (people get hurt-not only in a SHTF Scenario), reliable.
    Yes, the Blaser R8 might be an option here and if you plan to spend this kind of money on it, good on you.

    I don’t.

    Talking about money.
    Rifles and ammo have to be affordable. Even replaceable. Nothing exquisite/exotic …remember my experience with the Van …..

    So magnums are out, too.

    I like the performance of the 7mm RemMag and the .300 WinMag is popular with snipers, too.
    But for several reasons now you know they are not an option.

    So what did I come up with?

    .308 Win, 175grs BTHP for plinking and tactical scenarios (a 20″ and a 24″ barreled Precision rifle, a 18,5″ semi automatic).
    All three have the same scope, a 10×42.
    Yes, I like to keep things simple. I may change the rifle-the rest stays pretty much the same.
    180grs Barnes TSX for hunting (ever since Henry came out with the Long Ranger with Iron Sights this is my go to general purpose rifle).
    All my .308 sport a 1-10″ twist to support heavy, or more accurate, long bullets (e.g. 155grs Lapua Scenar or 175grs SMK).
    With my .308 Long Ranger I may not be adequately armed against a big Brownie, but I am far from being unarmed.

    On an additional note:
    I usually take my Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 with 425grs hard cast bullets when going in the bush and not wanting to hunt.
    I fitted it with Skinner Sights and you could add a red dot for quick target acquisition, which is the ticket if you’re cross eye dominant, too.
    This will pretty much take down any attacking critter on earth.
    When out on horseback for several days I pack the 45-70 ( I’m right handed so it’s left side front, butt up) and put the Long Ranger on the pack mule.
    The Long Ranger is fitted with a Holosight but might get a fixed low power scope one of these days….preferably 3x magnification.
    With the DBM of the Long Ranger it’s easy to have a spare Mag ready with a different load (in my case the 200grs Swift A-Frame against Bears) so as to be not caught with your pants down and your thumb up your arse.

    Having stated all of the above, your priorities may vary.

    Cheers and thanks for reading!

  59. Howdy again!

    I wrote the main bode of the aforementioned article about two years ago, mainly to summarize the points for myself.
    As time went by, I added to it and only recently felt the urge to share my take on it.

    However, nothing is carved in stone and all is fluid…

    I am no longer using the Barnes, since they are to long to fit in the DBM of the Henry Long Ranger.
    I switched to the Hornady 178 hrs A-Max, which has been proven to be a very capable hunting bullet.

    And then there are the relatively new and very exciting Alco bullets.
    Just run a few numbers and you will realize that with these bullets the .308 Win comes right up to .300 WinMag performance!

    .300 WinMag, 190grs @ 2870 with a BC of 0.533
    .308 Win , 168grs @2750 with a BC of 0.618
    The 175grs has a BC of 0.644
    The drop at a mile comes down to 25,2 mils.
    Out to about 1100 m the drop is about the same, after that the Alco 168grs outperforms the .300 WinMag.

    I know, this is not the whole story, e.g. energy and wind drift being neglected here.
    And I don’t plan on shooting these distances with the .308 Win anyway….
    But- the Alco bullets, with their aluminum tip for best long range performance and the steel tip for Big Game hunting, have significantly enhanced the range where the .308 Win is at home!


Have a question or comment? We want to hear it!

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.